In a year of great uncertainty, when the last page of 2020 is finally turned, one truth will already have been established beyond any possible doubt – 2020 will have been a fantastic year for those wishing to see a breakaway independent Western Cape.

The debate around Cape independence has never centred on whether it is actually a good idea, let alone whether it is in the best interests of the people of the Western Cape. In any objective assessment both are surely givens? There is no greater testament to this than that not one single commentator opposed to independence has taken up the challenge laid down by the Cape Independence Advocacy Group (CIAG) on 23 June in the Daily Friend, and which was then mailed directly to over 70 senior journalists and politicians.

“Is anyone willing to advance a reasoned argument why the people of the Cape would be better off by remaining in a union with South Africa?”

Opponents of independence avoid discussing its merits

This is not of course to say that opponents of independence have been silent on the issue, quite the opposite. The political left have been positively foaming at the mouth on the subject. Pierre de Vos, Max du Preez, and others have avoided the merits of the idea entirely and focused their attacks on whether it is a possibility, whilst the Democratic Alliance (DA), for entirely different reasons, have followed precisely the same strategy.

I bear them no malice. This is an entirely sensible strategy.  How would you argue that surrendering political power to a corrupt, incompetent, racist regime, which you didn’t vote for, and which actively discriminates against the majority of you on the basis of your ethnicity, is a good idea? What empirical data could you possibly use to bolster any claim that the Western Cape is better off being governed from Pretoria? Not economic growth, nor unemployment rates, not educational standards nor crime rates. Not how well we have dealt with poverty and inequality, or the efficiency with which we run government services and state-owned entities. No, you definitely need to avoid all of those like the plague.

Instead you would look to exploit the natural fault line amongst would-be Cape independence supporters – those who believe it is possible, and those who love the idea, but don’t believe it possible. This is, therefore, exactly what we have seen from the anti-independence camp.

Trying to shame people into silence

The anti-camp has pursued two primary strategies: to try and persuade voters that it is legally futile, and, somewhat predictably, to try and portray the movement as inherently racist.  Neither is grounded in reality, but then that wasn’t the intent of either strategy anyway. The legal strategy is calculated to discourage people from following their hearts, manipulating them into giving up without trying, whilst the race strategy is designed to shame people into silence.

To the doubters I would say this – dare to dream. Decide what you really want, decide what you believe to be in your best interest. If you think Cape independence is not in the best interests of the people of the Western Cape, then stand up for that viewpoint, be heard. But, if you believe independence is actually in our best interest; don’t allow others with very definite personal agendas to shame you into silence or convince you that it isn’t possible and therefore that you shouldn’t even try. Don’t be pressured into admiring the emperor’s new clothes even though you can’t yourself see them.

Although its origin is disputed, the phrase often attributed to Gandhi is very appropriate to Cape independence:

“First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win”

In 2019, a Google search shows that three media houses ran a total of four articles on Cape independence. In 2020, twenty-seven different media houses ran well over fifty articles. Writing in the Daily Maverick, Pierre de Vos said “The rest of us are, of course, also free to mock them”.

I think it is clear to see where independence now is on the ‘Gandhi’ continuum, and how much it has moved during 2020.

Race and legality decisively dealt with

The independence movement itself has its own role to play, and it must wear many hats.  The public narrative is important, and people like De Vos and Du Preez have an audience.  It was therefore critical that, despite their duplicitous nature,  the legal and racial positions against Cape Independence were dealt with decisively. Both were.

Within hours of Pierre de Vos suggesting Cape Independence wasn’t legally possible, on account of the constitutional bar being set too high, the CIAG was inundated with offers of help from legal experts on 3 continents.  In the end four very different commentaries put the matter decisively to bed.

The CIAG responded directly to De Vos, pointing out that the Constitution is but one component of the complex political jigsaw of secession, and that the democratic will of the people almost always has, and will, trump the letter of the law, just as it did with the end of apartheid. Dr Fatima Saayman, an expert in remedial secession and international law, explained the process by which a seceding territory could do so without the permission of the parent state, giving referenced examples of how this happens on a regular basis, pointing out that this is in fact the ‘norm’. Prof. Koos Malan explained how the constitution is a living reality, not a finite written document, and that it is in a state of constant change driven by the political realities of the day. Independence, in one form or another, is already happening and inevitable. Finally, Dr Corne Mulder emphasised that political realities on the ground, and not the Constitution, will determine Cape independence, before publicly announcing the Vryheidsfront Plus’s support for Cape independence at the Cape Town Press Club.

Poll & march show Cape independence anything but white

When it came to the matter of race, the independent poll commissioned by the CIAG and run by Victory Research was emphatic. Some 72% of those supporting Cape independence were not white. Those who still refused to believe that Cape Independence wasn’t in fact synonymous with a white ethno-state received a rude awakening, when the first major march for Cape independence, the Cloetesville March, turned out to be a distinctly Cape-flavoured affair, and anything but white.  Predictably the race-based insults continued unabated, but were telling in their own right. I must confess I whooped a little when confronted for the first time with “Cape independence is just a bunch of stupid coloured people”. Another battle won.

That the poll showed 36% of all Western Cape voters and 53% of WC DA voters supporting independence had many more people hot under the collar. No one wants to believe the majority of DA supporters in the Western Cape want independence, least of all the DA. This in itself is quite remarkable.  Does the DA really think that DA voters enjoy voting DA and getting the ANC despite being in the WC majority? Why wouldn’t they support independence?

2021 elections going to feature Cape independence

So, we end the year in a very different place from where we started it. Independence is now firmly established as a political option in the mainstream narrative. CapeXit (the organisation) ended the year with 630k signed mandates for independence, a number equal to 20% of all registered WC voters, and two political parties, the Cape Party and the Vryheidsfront Plus, who will be contesting the 2021 local elections whilst supporting Cape independence.  I can say with a high degree of confidence that other political parties will have joined them before then.

Veteran journalist and historian, RW Johnson wrote late last year that in those elections there was a good chance that the DA would have its hand forced on Cape independence. He refers to the DA as having been ‘scrupulously silent’ on the issue. This isn’t entirely correct, but they certainly have been extremely guarded. We have good visibility behind the closed DA doors, it might look like a duck swimming calmly, but we all know how that analogy goes. Cape independence is now at the very heart of Western Cape politics and the DA will undoubtedly have polled its significance.

2021 promises to be even more exciting.

How can independence supporters help?

What can you do? The appointed time is upon us. If we want Cape independence we have to take it. That means wearing your heart on your sleeve. Telling your friends, your family, and your colleagues that this is something you want – a better life for us all, regardless of race, religion, and culture.  People take time to come around to the idea of Cape independence; you are going to get laughed at by some, insulted by others. People have suffered far worse in the name of freedom.

Cape independence is completely dependent on the support of 50% of all WC voters, plus 1 more. This is the real ‘high bar’ for secession.

The views of the writer are not necessarily the views of the Daily Friend or the IRR

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    • Careful what you wish for. Whites are still only a 17% minority in the Western Cape. So now you run the risk of just swapping BEE of CEE, as coloureds decide: “Hang on, you white okes owe us reparations for slavery.”

      • What have Cape independence and white hegemony got to do with each other?

        Firstly, a core tenet of an independent Western Cape is non-racialism, and polling shows all independence supporters of every race support this principle.

        In any event, so called ‘coloured’ citizens are the largest racial group, and always have been. Were people to vote by race and not on principle (which history shows isn’t what happens in WC, but does in SA) then ‘coloured’ citizens will have the most political power. Why would that be a problem?

    • If it were not for the competence of the DA in making the WC a good place to live would the argument for independence have been raised? Surely, the argument should be about ensuring the growth of the DA in other provinces? Would the secessionists have a case if the ANC was replaced?

      • The simple fact remains the DA supports the Globalist UN-Agenda2030.

        So why would anyone want to vote for an organisation that continues to deceive the electorate.

        The fact that they can show that they are better than the ANC is not difficult. Any party with some sense could do that.

        Windebag is unfortunatly bleating the Covid19 propaganda and is quite happy tpo follow the ANC lead in destroying the liveleyhood and the economy.
        You should look-up the article on How did “flatten the curve” become “flatten the economy?”
        That was the ANC ruse used to enable the”Declation of Disaster” which fooled the DA into compliance and simply capitulated out of fear to give the ANC unending control while they loot. They just don’t have any testicular fortitude to admit they were wrong. The need to save face is overwhelming. There was never an emergency and there still is no emergency, its all parroting of the MSM on behalf of Global Corporate Destruction of small business using a Captured Government in the UN Cabal.

      • With all due respect, there is no place in the Universe where the DA would win national elections. No matter what they have done for 26 years, no matter what they do now, the ANC is a church and its voters congregants, not responsible voters. They forgive their church again and again and again. And will vote them in until Jesus comes. It does not matter what the ANC do, be it stealing on an epic scale thereby depriving their own voters, lying, destroying infrastructure and SOE’s or insanely insisting on keeping these behemoths alive, the voters vote them in every 5 years. Their only tiny protest comes in the form of not voting at all, which of course, indirectly, means a “vote” for the ANC.
        The only chance the DA have is to be part of the secessionist movement and together with the Khoisan and other parties, lead the WC into independence. The DA would be a massive part of this process as it has the advantage of having sat in Parliament, understand the political system, and most importantly have all the civil administration in place at Provincial and local government level. Get with the program, DA.

        • Exactly.
          “Does the DA really think that DA voters enjoy voting DA and getting the ANC despite being in the WC majority? Why wouldn’t they support independence?”
          If the DA does not actively support secession by the time we next vote, I will vote with my head (not my heart) for a party that does. Sorry DA, but you need to wake up.

    • Not the demise of the DA, the demise of ANC / EFF involvement in the Western Cape. The DA might have it’s faults, but it’s NOT the problem at hand here.

    • If you could give the Zulu King a little nudge towards Zulu independence opening a second front on independence that would be helpful (said tongue-in-cheek).

      More seriously, at this point in time this is an idea that needs to really germinate and that requires intelligent discussion from those both for and against the idea. Articles in the media are great to promote discussion, as are discussions in social media. Many people are capable of writing and submitting articles, just as I have written and submitted this one.

      Beyond that there are many topics that academics could really offer valuable input on from economics, land reform, education, policing etc, all of which would add great value to the discussion.

      Perhaps most importantly of all is putting the DA (as the current provincial govt) under pressure on independence. They continue to favour a dethroning of the ANC with them in the driving seat as the salvation of SA and the Cape with it. We (CIAG) would strongly argue that this is a very unrealistic eventuality (outside WC the DA had 16% of the national vote). We suggest consolidating in the W.Cape and saving it first (since they already have the democratic power base to do so), demonstrating their capacity to deliver as a national govt with control over national policy (presuming they win the post independence elections), and then building again from there is a better strategy. In truth this is their current strategy anyway, except for them having less power in the WC leaving them as a puppet govt in many areas of governance.

      • Phil Craig, I salute you and what you are trying to achieve.
        Please engage with the DA on this topic.
        Per my comment elsewhere
        “If the DA does not actively support secession by the time we next vote, I will vote with my head (not my heart) for a party that does. Sorry DA, but you need to wake up.”

    • Sell in KZN (as I am trying to do). Buy in W.Cape (as I have done). Being in W.Cape feels like not being in SA, and is almost less expensive than Monaco 🙂

  1. The DA has become the puppet of the NWO. It also has strong alliances with the far left US Democrats supporting a one world government and a criminal Big Pharma medical industry pushing dangerous vaccines on humanity for a nonlethal virus. It has continued to support exaggerated Covid statistical data and false medical science. So, as far as I’m concerned, the DA, like the ANC, cannot and should not be trusted.
    Cape Independence is shorting itself and fighting for a lot less than it should. The whole Western region of South Africa must be made independent not just the W. Cape. Black tribes have no claim to parts of the E. Cape, Free State and N. Cape. These regions must be included into the Cape Independence region.

    • Yup, all their utterings and actions (especially those from Winde), show that the DA is aligned to the supposed Great Reset and the autocrats and oligarchs behind this supposed NWO. Hulle ma se ….

      • comments like these expose the true motivation behind the desire for independence. I am NOT saying that the aim of the CAIG is racist but certainly many of their disciples are motivated by Race.

        • W.Cape has 7m citizens and 3.1m voters

          Many of them are racist, and that will include some in both the pro & and anti independence camps

          Polling however has repeatedly confirmed that the primary motivations for independence are not racist, but in fact the very opposite

          The most popular reasons given for supporting independence are creating a genuinely non-racial society, together with crime and sound governance

    • Surely we have all seen enough of ‘who got there first’ politics? Our rights as citizens are based upon our residency.

      Even if ideologically you can’t ascribe to this, it is in any event a mandatory requirement if you wish to obtain international support which will be critical to success of Cape independence. Independence must be build upon the democratic will of the electorate in the territory wishing to secede. For now only the WC has consistently rejected the party of national govt.

      There may well be an argument at municipal level, subject to the democratic will of municipal citizens, of adjusting the current WC borders to better represent the democratic will of the people once W.Cape independence has been agreed. Many of the southern N.Cape municipalities abutting the WC border, as well as some of the Western E.Cape municipalities also along the provincial border do not wish to be governed by the ANC. (Some inside the WC but adjoining the border may also choose to opt out on the same basis).

      What is important to be absolutely clear on is that this must be based on democratic will and not race. Rejecting once and for all time the evil of using racial classification instead of treating people on their own individual merits is at the very heart of Cape independence.

      • Isn’t the ‘who got here first’ tactic really a last ditch effort to introduce an argument, when all others fail? If that tactic had a chance of working, the protest at the Union Buildings by the Khoi San would have shown results by now 😉

    • The DA will never support independence because they know it will be the end of the road for them. Independence will create different parties most probably based on culture (dare say ethnic) and region.

    • Let’s stop wasting precious energy beating up on the DA. The expediency their position on Cape independence must surely be understood. Committing to it at this stage would just give the ANC a huge stick to beat them with. They will come around when the time is right.

      • To a large extent I agree with you John

        As an ex-DA voter myself, and someone who would happily live in a DA run independent W.Cape (should voters so choose) i feel they need to see both the carrot and the stick

        However, let’s not forget they are in a position where they could almost certainly deliver Cape independence but are currently choosing not to on account of their own national ambitions

        Is that in the best interests of the W.Cape electorate who elected them?

        For this they must answer (at the ballot box if they make it necessary)

  2. In some way the Wcape has already achieved a form of independence simply by being far better governed than the rest of the country and as a result, attracting more people from other centres to settle here. This is progressive and should continue. What needs to happen next is that local government should further fight to free the region of national government control of essential sectors like policing, health etc which they’ve already demonstrated themselves to be far more competent at running.

    • And therein lies the solution! Creeoing independence by slowly taking over the responsibilities presently performed by the State. Then you will see how much it will cost. A UDI will never work.

    • That is a rare sensible comment. There are other municipalities which have achieved something similar. It is a workable solution, and you don’t need to secede to get there. What’s more is you don’t slap someone in the face by pretending that you have a special and unique culture, and then also ask them to support your special and unique hubris, like most of the WC Secession morons are doing.

  3. Hell will freeze over before the cANCer will allow this.

    We do not live in a free and fair democracy.
    We are governed by corrupt socialists and communists hellbent on corrupting and destroying our way of life.

    On what planet, in what reality, in what universe do you ever believe that the cANCer will allow this?

    If 1010% of everyone in the Cape Voted leave, what do you really think is going to happen?
    The cANCer is just going to let you walk away?


    We are already at war, and have been for a very long time (“we”, as in peace loving democrats. Faith, Flag, Family, or those of us who are left who have not immigrated yet),
    The only way to win this war is to defeat them at the source, i.e., remove the ANC.
    This will only be achieved by exposing them for what they are, and by winning the hearts and minds of the population, ensuring that they never hold power again, and there by ensuring that we can all enjoy a prosperous, free and fair society where the rule of law holds sway.

    And this all needs to be done Ethically, Legally and without violence or bloodshed so that they understand that there corrupt, socialist, racist, hate filled small mindedness will never be tolerated again.

    Sound familiar? i.e. ANC vs NATS al la 1980’s / 1990’s?
    Wake up Sheeple!!!
    The only thing that has really changed is the management, who are even more morally corrupt than the last lot!

    The DA at least is on the right track with their new drive under Steenhuisen with the new non racial policy and a policy of no fingers in the till.
    It might not be the final solution, but it will be a start in ensuring our Democracy!

  4. I believe that the Western Cape independence is a good idea and the people in the Province can govern themselves in a responsible way. We have the capacity and people in the Province who can make things happen to be successful and a thriving Province. It is time to take control of this Province, work together for a brighter future for all residents of the WC. I have full confidence that this plan can work with input of all institutes and parties concerned.
    The time is now to rid this Province of corrupt, incompetent, a racist regime, which we didn’t vote for, who by all means discriminates against the majority of us on the basis of our ethnicity/race/religion.
    The Western Cape will be better off not being governed from Pretoria.
    Looking at factors such economic growth, high unemployment rates, poor educational standards, high crime rates, corruption and junk status shows us what a mess this country is in, at present. The state-owned entities are stripped bare due to corruption, mismanagement and incompetent people in management positions due to the current regime. No, we definitely need to avoid and get away from these situations as soon as possible, and avoid them like the plague.
    We need a better and more deserved future for our beautiful and diverse Province.

  5. I have two questions:
    1. What makes you think that a mini South Africa will in the end be different that what it is niw?
    2. Why can’t the minorities get their act together, get their leaders to sit on their egos and act as a unit to get this through?

  6. Although possible and reasonable, independence will come with a huge cost. Just remember, ANC threatened with civil war if they do not win, just few days ago. If they are ready to go that route over few metros they may lose, hard to imagine they will do anything less in case of secession.

    We are not UK, where Scotland goes to referendum and the rest of the kingdom is against their independence, but will accept whatever people decide.

    Examples from Yugoslavia show that independence may go either peacefully or through massive war, civil or foreign intervention. Slovenia gained independence trough civil war, relatively small one with very few casualties, Croatia and Bosnia were stuck in years of brutal civil war with massive casualties and numerous crimes against humanity that are still in front of the court in Hague. Kosovo gained independence trough foreign intervention, after NATO bombarded Serbia relentlessly for months. Macedonia and Montenegro gained independence in a peaceful way, through the will of people.

    So, we can see in example of that failed state all possibilities how independence may go. With ANC in power, copycat of Yugoslavian communist party of the time, I am afraid that Croatian scenario is in the play, best case Slovenian.

  7. Yip, cut up the country in small little parcells with everyone playing king on their own little plots. Just make sure that you end up on one of the prime portions and the hell with the rest. Sadly always easier to go for the short term gains for the few than to work for the best outcomes for humanity. To make the world a long term prospect for all that live on it, our aim should be removal of, and not creating more artificial borders. Just saying.

    • Why must W.Cape voters be denied their political will in perpetuity, on the basis a colonial decision made in 1910 which had the disenfranchisement of citizens on the basis of their race at it’s heart?

      It can’t be for either your or me to decide what is best for them, the must be allowed to decide for themselves.

      • I do agree with you Mr Craig, wholeheartedly.
        People should have the choice, that is the whole point of Freedom, but with it comes great responsibility.
        Are we not our brothers keepers?

        Are we truly free in South Africa today? Would you turn your back on your brother, leaving him alone in his fight against this corrupt, socialist, racist regime?

        Why do you truly support secession Sir? Or is Mr Manie correct, and this is simply an easy way out….?

        • Must be careful of the ‘Soft bigotry of low expectations’

          The other 8 provinces have the govt they have voted for for 26 straight years

          They have made their choice. Are you suggesting we must try and save them from themselves, sacrificing ourselves in the process?

        • Another way to look at it (and I believe the ANC looks at it this way) is that if the W.Cape gains independence, the rest will want to follow suit.

          The Zulu will want independence. Then the Xhosa will say to themselves “if they can have it, why can’t we.” (the monarchs would love nothing more than to re-establish their ancestral kingdoms – who could blame them, instead of receiving a “stipend”, all the taxes would be their birth right and they could be above the law)

          This will cut SA up into little countries where identity politics will rule! Wait we already have that (identity politics) – so no problem 🙂

    • Absolutely. A secession means the rest of the county no longer enjoys some of our fundamental constitutional rights. And still no clear direction or answers on exactly what it would entail for us to trade or even move between this new fairytale kingdom and the rest of the country. I hope they give us translators and some tour guides so we can deal with the massively different language and culture of the special Western Cape people.

  8. Anything is better then what is NOW … we are suffocated by Racism in Gauteng …. and there is just no way out. I am guilty of having voted “YES” 25 years ago.Now I must watch in agony how our wonderful country is being systematically destroyed ….

    • Congrats mate, you are the first Ja-broer I have come across in the last decade. ‘Told you so’ sounds hollow but I forgive you.

  9. Excellent idea ! We must encourage more Industry and factories to be economically viable by ourselves. Just one small question: What about our sporting teams? Will we still be playing in the National teams ? Will we still be supporting Springboks, Proteas , Bafana etc ?

    • The two countries ideologies will be completely incompatible

      A central tenet of the Cape of Good Hope constitution will be non-racialism whilst SA is fully committed to quotas in one form or another

      I suspect this would just be one more area where the successes of an independent W.Cape would show SA the error of their ways.

  10. Disingenuous to claim hur hur nobody dares to take up the challenge of me not being able to grasp the concept of burden of proof.

    • Feel free to submit a reasoned argument responding to the question.

      Only one person has so far, and that was Ivo Vegter. He said he couldn’t find a valid counter-argument and therefore accepted Cape independence in best interest of W.Cape citizens

      • The burden of proof does not lie with the rest of us to try and give you reasons why not. The burden of proof lies with you and other KEXIT (want lyk my julle wil lekker in die Kak Sit) advocates to come up with reasons in favour of your proposal. Ag shame, the Western Cape is special because my mom told me so is not a valid reason. Ag shame, the Western Cape has its own unique culture is not a valid reason, it’s not even true. While the Western Cape does have many unique cultures, presumably you do not share in any of those cultures. Ag shame, the Western Cape is being governed from Pretoria and we’re sick of it is neither true nor valid. This is not an example of sound reasoning. This is an example of an embarrassment, and the possibility of being associated with this embarrassment is why nobody allegedly rises to the challenge. Despite the fact that Pierre de Vos rose to the challenge. You just dismiss his attempt. Personally, I do not blame you for not taking his brand of activism seriously, but it does stand as an example of someone who did rise to the challenge of pointing out how bad an idea this is.

        As much as I admire and appreciate Ivo’s reasoned hot takes, the fact that he also cannot come up with reasons why not only shows that he supports the idea. That in and of itself does not lend merit to the idea. What will your currency be? Will you require us to show a dompas if we want to visit your Bantustan? What will the nature of your government be? Also a constitutional, representational republic? So many questions, most of which indicate it’s a tempest in a teapot and not one of the storms for which the Cape is so widely renowned.

        I have noted my objections several times. Firstly, my personal unqualified legal opinion (I am not a legal eagle) based on an armchair reading of our constitution holds that self-governance is at least legally allowed by our constitution. It is on this basis that Orania exists. For people who really are serious about self-governance and an unique and special culture, why not move there and help to embolden the success of that project? Is that culture a little too unique and special for you? Oh, right. You don’t actually want to enjoy a special and unique culture with self-governance, you just want to fence off your own backyard without having to share it with those damn Valies with their socks in crocs who basically move there as economic migrants and keep most of the province’s meagre contribution to our GDP almost worth mentioning. But there are economic migrants from the WC too, in GP. Somehow they manage to adapt to the special and unique culture we have here. Somehow they do not find a language barrier too high to overcome. Curious, that. And they can move freely between the provinces. Curioser and curioser.

        Broken record time: If you want self-governance, there are internationally accepted requirements that need to be met. That is if the self-governance any of our provinces already enjoy is not enough for you, and you want self-determination. These are, among others: A definition of a people; territorial integrity.

        So far, KEXIT could not answer what the nature of the People in the Western Cape entails that separates them from the rest of the country. You share the same languages. You share the same ethnicities. You share the same fears and concerns as everyone else ‘governed from Pretoria’. If you are fighting for self-governance of the Khoe-people(s), or paradoxically self-governance of the amaZulu, then your idea stands on those merits and deserves to be taken seriously instead of just bringing down the signal-to-noise ratio. At least those are people bound by ethnicity and/or language, and there is a reason why we speak of Kwazulu-Natal. It’s Zululand. Tick that territorial integrity box. What is the ethnicity and or language of the Western Cape people that can seriously be claimed as unique and struggling to feed us poor plebs cake? Being an enclave of smug poephols sniffing each other’s smug farts is not an example of an unique culture, it’s just a gated community. The fact that nobody has wasted their time with this nonsense is not a testament to the greatness of the idea, it’s just a testament that most people have given up trying to break through to the kids with the velcro shoes who need more hugs than the rest.

        In closing to the broken record sermon, yet again: Even if you did honestly and sincerely have an unique culture there in the Western Cape, and territorial integrity, there is no guarantee that this idea will gain traction. The reason being that if WC really did contribute as much to our GDP as they think they did, then Pretoria would allow this even less. The bitter irony is that the more merits there are for independence and self-governance, the more valuable your Stellenbosch Maffia’s playground is to the rest of the country in Randela terms. Why would Pretoria let that go? Your case study there is Catalonia, in Spain. Unlike the WC, it does consist of a distinct culture and people, bound together at least by their own language. ‘Aweh mase kinners’ is not an unique language. We hear that on the wrong side of the railway here too. Even so, Catalonia is currently an ‘autonomous community’. Which in practical terms means they have their own province, inasmuch as we currently have different autonomous provinces. What you want, you already have. So if you were honest with us, in reality you want something else.

        • But this is just ‘whataboutery’ meets ‘strawman’ and distills down to ‘but i’ll be on the wrong side of the border’ without attempting to address the key question at hand:

          “Would Cape independence be in the best interests of the Western Cape people (or not)?”

          For example whether it is legally possible is deliberately moot in the phrasing of the question, because implementation and principle are two entirely different things. You have to start with principle. In any event the above article links four legal opinions; by a professor in constitutional law, a professor in public law, a doctor in consitutional law and a doctor in international law. The last of these produced an academically referenced explanation of exactly why the Western Cape population qualifies as a ‘peoples’, which, on the basis of your response, you haven’t even read.

          Like wise data from economists, the treasury, the W.Cape government, Stats SA et al

          The point of asking the question in the format is precisely because opponents of independence such as yourself deliberately avoid the nucleus of the matter (what is best for the people of the W.Cape) and obfuscate by debating the issues surrounding it.

          You may believe (as many do) that Cape independence is in the best interests of the W.Cape people, but just isn’t achievable

          That is quite different from believing it isn’t in the best interests of the people of the Western Cape.

          In your case you seem to be arguing it isn’t in the best interests of the people of Gauteng (or South Africa). So what? Gauteng and SA have the government they voted for. The W.Cape doesn’t.

          • If your only interest is the people if the western cape then why bother putting this in a public forum? Does the opinion of anyone matter then?
            Submit to the cape newspapers and arrange meetings in the town halls.
            This seems like a locals only thing now.

            But I will bite one last time — is this best for the people of the western cape?
            I will answer probably not for 3 reasons:
            1) historically the people of the cape of good hope were piss-poor until the borders expanded to the limpopo. The fundamental reasons why hasnt changed.
            2) wc wealth is imported from rest of country and the bulk of business is outside stellenbosch
            3) last time the cape cane up with an idea of exceptionalism they created the NP. Just a thought.

          • That is not what whattaboutery is. Whatabouttery is also known as the ‘you too’ fallacy. An example would be if Apart Hate South Africa accused China of human rights abuses, which is true, but China retorts with well, what about you? You don’t give black people voting rights, so you are a hypocrite on human rights. Your hypocrisy means we don’t have to address our human rights issues.

            Comparing one situation with another and using the words ‘what about this other situation?’ is not whataboutery/whataboutism/tu quoque fallacy.

            I didn’t say ‘what about Catalonia?’ in that spirit. What I did say is that the Western Cape does not meet the internationally recognised requirements for self-determination. This is not a straw-man argument. A straw-man argument is when I take your argument and misrepresent it as something else, and then attack that something else instead of addressing your argument. Part of my objection was that you did not present an argument. You carry the burden of proof to present your argument.

            So far, you just made an assertion that nobody can give you valid reasons why not? I did not misrepresent your view, I gave you my reasons why WC independence doesn’t carry merit: The WC does not conform to internationally recognised requirements for self-determination. I answered your question.

            To recap: I claimed you carry the burden or proof to present the reasons why Western Cape independence is a great idea. We do not carry the burden of proof to tell you why it’s a dumb idea. I did not reframe your views, I told you why it’s a dumb idea: It does not meet internationally recognised requirements for self-determination. Nobody identified the unique culture in the Western Cape that is not held in common with the rest of the country, for starters. I’ll wait, but I’m not holding my breath. Nobody can even tell me where exactly the Western Cape ends and the other areas begin, with the Western Cape being a make-believe region carved out of the former Cape Colony, which at least had some sensible geographical boundaries. I then contrasted the situation of a place like the Western Cape, which does not meet those requirements, with Catalonia, which does meet the internationally recognised requirements for self-determination. The point is that we have to places here in comparison: One place that does not meet the requirements, and one place that does. This means that even if all those boxes were ticked in the Western Cape, then the more of an industrial powerhouse and economically viable area it is, then the less your chances are of gaining self-determination. This is currently the case for Catalonia. The intention was to convey the idea that hmm maybe if it’s hard for a place that should have it easy by international standards, it would be even harder for a place that does not meet those requirements.

            “Would Cape independence be in the best interests of the Western Cape people (or not)?”

            It would not be in the best interest of the Western Cape people, because you need to import graduates from the rest of the country to meet demand and you deal with a host of economic migrants as things currently stand. As other commentators have mentioned, location is one thing, but I for one once considered moving to WC, and then saw that the salaries there are not competitive compared to other spots in the country, the property is absurdly overpriced, and most people there are much the same as in the rest of the country – former school friends and colleagues and still friends of mine, in fact. Nobody is more truesbob Capetonian than a newly minted one it seems. Much better to go there on holiday once in a while and live like a king, and fortunately there are no cultural or language barriers because the WC does not have any culture that gives me culture shock. But pitch a fence and poke a flag in the ground and ask me for my passport, and I have other options with fewer externalities. The situation is the same for international business people who really like Cape Town, but who may be enticed to explore the rest of the country (or even just the Western Cape province) if it doesn’t suit their pockets any longer.

            Oh, and you’re just plain wrong to suggest that the Western Cape doesn’t have the government it voted for. It does. The majority of people in the Western Cape voted for the DA, and that is the provincial government that they have.

  11. How economically viable and practical will this be? The Western Cape which only has a services, tourism and agriculture sector is heavily reliant on the financial clout of Johannesburg, the mineral resources of the northern provinces, the manufacturing sector of Gauteng and the harbours of KZN and the Eastern Cape. Will we shadow the Rand as currency or establish our own currency (which will be worthless)? Either way, we will be at the mercy of the Reserve Bank’s rates decision-making, without influence. We will be heavily reliant on trade with the “Rest of South Africa”, but with the extra imposition of tariffs, duties and custom delays. We are reliant on the national grid for electricity. Koeberg supplies a minuscule amount to the grid and is rapidly ageing. To build our new power stations would cost billions of Rands (or the new worthless Cape currency!). Establishing a border and starting a Cape Police and armed forces will cost billions, let alone establishing diplomatic and trade services in the rest of the world. Try and be a Cape resident with no South African citizenship if something happens to you overseas (it’s all fine and well for British passport holders to fall back on their UK citizenship, but many here don’t have that luxury).
    The establishment of all this new state infrastructure will drain the private sector in increased taxes and rates. The cost of doing business in the Cape will increase exponentially, and many multinational companies will move more of their operations to Gauteng, increasing unemployment even further. Instead of concentrating on basic service delivery, our politicians and civil servants will be tied up and negotiating the establishment of a brand new state for decades.
    There is no such thing as a ‘Cape’ identity. White people, Coloured people and black people all have friends and relatives spread out across the country – we have a common South African identity. To split us apart is divisive and destructive. If the Cape Nationalists argue that the Cape is unique from the rest of the country in that it has a Coloured majority, this reveals the underlying race basis of this pipe dream (why does the Cape Party’s logo include the Northern Cape but not the Eastern Cape – very revealing).

      • Agreed. I would love to see those concerns addressed, instead of some bundubashing sidetrack into SARS reports. I’ve raised the concerns of tariffs and dompas arrangements before, but nobody could give me a clear answer. It was either a case of yes, yes, hoist the bridge! Or it will be so watered down that moving between WC and the rest of South Africa proper would be barely an inconvenience, which makes one wonder what exactly is the point then? Who are they trying to fence in there? And who is getting fenced out? Seems like a whole lot of my fellow South Africans on one side, and a whole lot of other fellow South Africans on the other. Only now we are one autonomous zone, with one currency, and one passport, and I don’t really see how it pays anyone to change that. In fact, as Patrick mentions above, the WC is the province that stands to lose. They even had to bath in a skottel despite having its own water supply and its own separate provincial government that the majority of people there voted for, and its own water board. The reason? Oh no they didn’t get the support from national government. Right.. I thought they had the wherewithal to go it alone?

    • A lot of claims here, but without anything substantial to back them up, it just reads like the rhetoric of someone opposed to the idea. Accept space limited but i’d enjoy reading a properly referenced version of this.

      At face value, the treasury shows that the W.Cape is a significant net contributor to the SA fiscus, whilst the provincial government shows that the W.Cape economy is equal in size to Namibia, Botswana and Zimbabwe combined. Stats SA meanwhile state, in their report ‘What if provinces were independent states” that the W.Cape is roughly the same size as the DRC. Economists like Dawie Roodt have already publicly shared their views that an independent W.Cape is economically viable.

      Then you have to ask on what possible basis do you feel multi-national would leave an independence Cape which would be adopting more investment friendly policies and a freer market, to relocate to SA with all of its bureaucratic impediments, when foreign direct investments are already avoiding SA like the plague? All logic suggests that businesses, together with both skills and investment, will be heading in the opposite direction. This is certainly what the DA believe, their main concern being how will you keep people out given the inevitable success.

      Finally who is paying for the police and the army now? (Remember the WC is a net contributor to the SA fiscus). Where does the water currently come from? Are you seriously suggesting that somehow the new government couldn’t manage the police, army and water as well as the current SA government?

      Of course there are issues that need to be resolved, and electricity is definitely one. No-one said independence was going to be easy, it isn’t, but it will provide a far better future for WC citizens and it will give them meaningful democracy for the first time ever in their lives.

      • You say that my claims are unsubstantiated and that I need to provide references, as an opt-out so that you can avoid having to engage directly or counter my concerns. It is common sense that it is impractical and fantastical. I am opposed to a frivolous referendum, that is going to cost billions in actually operationalising, when there are not even tangible proposals as to what an independent Western Cape might look like. There are not even cohesive proposals as to what territory this will consist of. The Cape Party includes the Northern Cape in their logo, but excludes the Eastern Cape. I remember that Jack Miller, the leader of the Cape Party, presented demographic charts of the Nguni distribution in the country – denser to the East, less denser to the West. You can draw your own conclusions from his fixation with race.

        In terms of the private economy, you do not deal at all with my concern that we are obviously, self-evidently highly interdependent on the rest of the country’s economy and resources. Even if the Western Cape “Orania” itself hopes or proposes not to establish any trading and free-flow-of-resource barriers, we would not be able to prevent the “Rest of South Africa” from implementing such barriers against us (we would have no constitutional or practical say). You may glibly argue that we do not need the rest of the country’s resources and that we can focus on our existing strengths. What are they? The tertiary services sector (but this is very hollow when disconnected from the rest of South Africa), tourism and agriculture. The latter two are highly susceptible. Tourism may flourish again when the pandemic eventually dissipates, although consumer spending on this might be significantly lower for years to come with the economic crash world-wide. Regardless, tourism is a very shallow and unpredictable sector on which to bank prosperity. Agriculture is highly susceptible to droughts, bad harvests and poor industrial relations.

        Yes, we are a net contributor to the South African fiscus now (not as much a net contributor as Gauteng is) – as far as I can tell this is what you are referring to when you mention Dawie Roodt. Has he actually and directly said that it is viable? Were we to become independent, all of this supposed saving will be upended in having to establish expensive new state infrastructure from scratch (as mentioned above, but you do not engage in it all). We would also have to negotiate what share of the national debt burden we are responsible for – another costly outlay at the very start of independence, with no certainty as to future prosperity. Do we as taxpayers and ratepayers want to cough up for all of this to start from a revolutionary “Day Zero”, so that we can go it alone and draw up the “laager” wagons.

        You evade the question as to the “Cape identity” – What is it that makes the Cape unique from other South Africans? We have cultural, political, and social bonds stretched right across the country. Even before the Union of South Africa in 1910, the Cape Colony was heavily interwoven with Natal and the Transvaal. The Cape businessmen’s wealth came from their investments on the Witwatersrand – still the mainstay of South Africa. If your answer is that the Cape’s uniqueness is because it votes differently from the rest of the country, this is based on the demographic correlation of voting and therefore based on race. Race permeates the politics of this.

        The onus is on you to prove your case that an independent Cape is economically viable. Don’t hide behind the notion of “it may be, it may be not, it is for others or the voters to decide” or the “details can be worked out later”. By pushing for such a pie-in-the-sky, novel, populist fantasy, a “Braai” gamble, and abrogating your responsibility as to its viability, you have adopted the prerogative of the demagogue. It is like debating with a slippery eel. You pretend to be an anti-establishment maverick, but are as evasive as your average politician.

        • If I were to provide you with the evidence of legal experts that independence was possible, and the evidence of economists that is was viable, would you then favour Cape independence?

          • I am uninterested in the legal, theoretical possibility of seceding. It may be remotely possible on paper after many protracted legal battles – realpolitik is a different matter. But, yes, please provide me with the economic analysis. Maybe you will surprise me. Who knows?

            Regarding your question as to whether I will change my mind. No, I am not a sectarian nationalist. I am a proudly South African liberal. I strive for unity, not division. I want to make South Africa work, not retreat into a ‘laager’.

          • Expert opinion is an appeal to authority. It may be relevant authority, but we have expert authority from a constitutional law scholar that claims it carries no weight.

            Patrick made some very good points which merits addressing instead of copping out to some sidetrack. People like me and Patrick who think Western Cape independence is a dumb idea are not just against the idea because it’s a dumb idea and you should feel bad for promoting such a dumb idea.

            > why is wc independence a bad idea?
            > this is why
            > oh but you don’t have evidence why
            > urm… can u read bro?

        • As a side-note, I mention above the hefty cost outlay at the start of independence (compensating for the WC’s share of the national debt burden and establishing new state infrastructure). What I did not mention is the excessive compensation that we would have to pay simply for taking over national state property [the highways, the railways, the harbours, Cape Town International and regional airports, dams, Eskom infrastructure (including the ageing and unreliable Koeberg), parastatal property, parliament and the rest of the Public Works portfolio]. Right from the outset, we would have to pay way beyond our means for a handover, before the private sector and residents derive any benefit. The Western Cape may contain many exotic florae, but the magic money tree is not one of these species. The new WC government would be saddled with hefty debt and we, the taxpayers and ratepayers, would be squeezed until the pips squeak for the sake of divisive and sectarian nationalism.

          • This is just more of the same – intelligent sounding pontification offered as a proxy for your dislike of independence

            You can’t possible know the outcome of a negotiation that hasn’t taken place and your synopsis, whilst well used by those sharing your views, doesn’t even stand the most superficial scrutiny.

            As a net contributor to the fiscus WC has paid more than it’s fair share for national assets (excluding the ones the Cape Colony provided in the first place like Parliament itself). Whilst it may only have paid a portion of the cost of W.Cape provincial assets it also subsidised all the other provinces assets, so if you charge for one you must credit for the other.

            Independence is about functional democracy – 36% of WC voters wanted a divorce at last count – that isn’t a decision that you make based on what will be in the divorce settlement. It certainly isn’t one you make based upon the threats of one partner who is desperate to bully the other into not leaving by claiming financial destitution if they do.

          • 36% want a divorce, but also the majority of people do not have the government they voted for. Kinda have to pick one there. Last time I checked, 64% is a larger number than 36%. But I can’t prove that to you, I just kinda assumed that 64 is a greater number than 36.

        • Excellent reply, Patrick. If only we could form a human chain across these chasms of culture and language and geography that separate us and prevent me from really becoming engrossed and understanding what you were saying there. But alas, I’m from Planet Gauteng.

    • No no no, nobody has taken up the challenge with logic and common sense like you obviously have here. Your response will be met with a pathetic attempt at shaming you, and more myopic pie in the sky navel gazing that claims Western Cape exceptionalism from behind an impenetrable smugosphere. You’re not supposed to actually respond to the challenge, you see. You’re supposed to just call for independence for a province that, besides not being run by the ANC/EFF in the first place, wants not to be run by the ANC/EFF. In other words, a part of the country with exactly the same fears and concerns as the rest of the country, except it doesn’t want to deal with those challenges along with the rest of the country. Despite your well reasoned response that decimates this WC independence pipe dream, it doesn’t fit the narrative so it will just be ignored.

  12. Ja.
    Interesting idea but the reason I dont take it seriously is the lack of a genuine proposal.
    “We want independence and we want it now!”, is not a plan.
    The ANC sucks is not a plan, either.

    If you want to propose a country then lut forth a serious reasoned proposal. Statibg the citizens will decide after they get independence lends credence to the notion that this is just a game.
    People will respond and dialogue with a proposal on the table but collectively they suck at making a proposal.
    Dont ask them, what do you want? Tell them, this is what we propose, do you agree and if not what do you suggest instead?

    These cape advocacy groups are long on enthusiasm and short on actual leadership and direction. You wont get people behind you in a serious(opposed to knee-jerk reactionary wishful thinking) until you give them a country to visualize.

    So, i think the idea has merit and personally believe the area south of the orange river and west of the fish river has potential to be viable, but west of the Kei would be better.
    Some questions i would like to see answers/ proposals to will follow in another reply. Not saying set these in stone but exactly what is this country that is being proposed going to look like? Suggest proposals and then let “the citizens decide.”

    • What will the country’s official language be?

      I suggested borders south of the orange s d west of the Fish (preferably Kei) because the northern cape brings beef and mining, low density lands allowing factories, solar farms, nuclear. The river and change in climate allows irrigation and cultivation of summer crops with high value date exports.
      The eastern cape brings wool, sheep, goats, pecans, citrus.
      The expanded coastlines allows expanded fisheries with greater range in options changing from the indian to the atlantic which also makes for more attractive tourism options.
      Anyways, i have opinionated enough.
      Valuable topic but frustrating in how its being handled by its advocates.

      • My suggestion is the KEXIT folk move to Robben Island. They can still see the mountain, shee wow. And they can be as ‘special’ as they want there.

        • @Garg — lol, on robben island.
          I made the mistake of thinking this is a genuine debate but now I see its just a late night braai fantasy.

          I do feel like declaring my erf to be the independent nation of Hondsekierie though. Because i keep being governed by the party i didnt vote for and have to pay taxes to.
          Damnable democracy with its majority rules rule!

          • Yes, braaivleis chatter, social media echo chamber, the board game of Risk and, of late, a few Zoom meetings. To be fair to Phil he has probably put his money where his mouth is and invested some of his precious Pounds into these separatist movements’ coffers (the websites and the polling) – absolute waste of money if you ask me. If it all goes haywire, he can return to the UK, not having to deal with the consequences of stoking the fires of division, whilst we are left to pick up the pieces.

    • Exactly, solid response there. I have not seen anything that gives this KEXIT idea merit, or indicates that we need to discuss it further. What I have seen are concerns and fears that Western Cape residents share with the rest of the country. Like it or not, the reality staring us in the face is that we’re all in this together. We are all gatvol of the ANC. We are all tired of basic infrastructure maintenance that we pay for from our taxes that has not been done. We all share those concerns, and we all share the same cultures that they have down there. We even have bigger mountains. We just don’t think that these shared characteristics make us special.

  13. What will this country’s territory be exactly? What are the imagined borders?
    Will this be a republic?
    A parliamentarian or a presidential system?
    Unitary state or federal?
    Centralized or devolved goverment?
    Qualified or universal franchise for the vote?
    How will the borders be protected and what is the policy on border controls?
    Immigration policy? Who qualifies as citizens?
    Will this country have a bourse and if so where?
    What will the economy be based upon? If disconnected from the interwoven rest of south africa, what will the economy be like and how will this impact the gauteng migrants?
    How will the country feed itself? Most of the staples are produced to the north.
    Does it have viable industry and manufacturing and sufficient locations for them?
    Labour policies?
    Proposed trade partners? Expected exports?
    Will there be an army and navy if so volunteer or conscription?
    National health insurance yes or no?
    Affirmative action?
    Policies on freedom of speech, freedom of association, property rights, media freedom?
    What is the policy on welfare and social grants?
    Suggested taxation types eg inheritance tax, capital gains, flat income tax or “progressive” looting..i mean taxing,
    Will mineral and surface rights be split or undivided?
    How will the country source its energy?
    And this being the western cape — what is the water plan?

    Theres actually a lot of questions but some of this at least would start fleshing out this idea from fantasy to being serious.
    In the meantime best of luck.

    • On what authority do you feel the CIAG has the right to decide these issues on behalf of W.Cape citizens? We are trying to strengthen democracy, not to create a dictatorship.

      Many of these points are valid and will need to be discussed at the appropriate time, but the starting point here is do W.Cape voters want to be able to elect their own government (and hold it to account if necessary), or are they happy for the other 8 provinces to decide on their behalf?

      The ANC is not the issue per se, but that they are the government and have been for 26 years despite the majority of WC voters never having voted for them.

      Did the battle against apartheid start with decisions about the JSE or food supply? No, it started with the disenfrachised wanting a franchise.

      • I didnt say decide on behalf of others, I said put forth a proposal for people to consider.
        How will this cape republic differ from the RSA?

      • On what authority do you feel that the Western Cape citizens have the right to decide on our behalf that we should hold a referendum to powder their bum bums?

      • The battle against Apartheid was fuelled by different motives. I, and many others, were against it because it’s treatment of people of colour felt intrinsically wrong and inhuman. Others were against it because, purely and simply, it prevented them from putting their hands in the public cookie jar. The latter, it seems, were in the majority which has led to the mess we are now in.

  14. As I see it the sad reality is that, in 1994, the people of SA generally wanted an open, free and fair society with a suitable government in the place of the then National party. Instead they got the ANC which set about creating anything but what such people wanted. Unfortunately, for a multiplicity of reasons, it looks as though the ANC will remain in government long enough to complete the destruction of SA as a first world country so the right thing to do, in my opinion, is for the people who share the vision of an, open, free and fair, society to legally secede from an SA misgoverned by the ANC.

    • OK, that leaves a bit of a problem, as discussed above and on several other occasions. Because the Western Cape, contrary to what they want to believe, is not an unique cultural or geographical area. Many of us are from there. Many of us move there. It’s not true that the Western Cape contributes such a hugely significant portion of GDP that it would be a major loss for the rest of the country, and it’s also not true that the Western Cape suffers so greatly because of a lack of contributions from national government. This is a case of not cutting off your nose to spite your face. This is a case of stepping on your nose and then shooting yourself in the foot to get rid of your nose.

  15. I’ve read most of the comments and for my part, it is better to get into the life boat, even if it is only a rowing boat, than drown with the sinking ship.
    Alternatively, it may be a better future to be in the rowing boat with Lieutenant William Bligh who knows what he is doing and heading for a safe harbour than heading to Pitcairn Island.
    That puts me in the “the arguments for” category.
    There is a maxim “Geography determines demographics, demographics determines culture and culture determines economics and politics.”
    Geographically speaking the Western Cape is different from the rest of South Africa as divided by an annual summer/winter rainfall line. The races and cultures on either side of this line are different, as are their political and economic histories.
    The 1910 Union was an artificial construct and despite the former and many different “cultural-altering interventions”, the subsequent local cultural, economic and political history is still different from the rest of South Africa.
    With the correct leadership it should be able to succeed.
    Hence I have also consistently (ad nauseam) called for “Give back the land – undo the Union.”

    • Ah, I see. The Western Cape should be independent, because winter rainfall. This is beginning to sound like the Science Must Fall crowd. Please don’t send lightning after the rest of the country, but the 1910 Union Must Fall!

    • ….and don’t be mislead by those claiming (for their own purposes) that there is no pilot in the lifeboat

      Independence will require 4 phases:

      1. Democratic mandate from W.Cape electorate to pursue independence (Referendum)
      2. Negotiations to enact that mandate and to address structural matters (Negotiations)
      3. Handover and enactment of the independence mandate (Transition & independence)
      4. Political mandate given to new government (Post independence elections)

      What many opponents of independence choose to do is infer that by not knowing the outcome of the negotiations that are yet to take place, that somehow this indicates a lack of viability.

      Whether it is trade (SA is a member of the WTO), borders, electricity etc there are of course issues that need to be addressed and resolved in conjunction with experts in their fields, and work on this matters is going on in the background. It is common sense that an advocacy group isn’t going to unilaterally pronounce on these issues, and that the eventual positions will be derived through due process.

      To suggest people can’t want genuine democracy (ability to elect your own government and to hold it to account) without knowing every detail of what they will do with that democratic agency is nonsensical. Economists (& Stats SA themselves) have made it clear that the Western Cape is economically viable as an independent territory.

          • I watched and I concur. It’ll boil down to how determined we are.
            That determination should increase as we get closer to EWC.

      • We’ve already covered that economic viability is an own goal and the more economically viable your pipe dream is, the more of a pipe dream it is.

        I’ll try again. Imagine we all lived in a commune and there’s a communal shiny Mercedes parked in the garage. Now you tell us hey guys I want that Mercedes for myself. Let’s have a little referendum about that. What do we have to gain? We know you have lots to gain. Why are you trying to convince us that our loss would be greater if we entertain these ideas? Now imagine if it were a rusty old Uno. If you were keen on that Uno, naturally we’d say hmm OK well give us all R50 or whatever and take it. It’s not a real loss to us. Similarly, the less economically feasible it is, the more of a chance you have at realising this dream, because people would care even less about the dead loss. If WC really had this special and unique culture, it’s not only an economic loss to us, but it’s our cultural heritage that you want to hijack for yourself as well. We already share our great province. Why can’t you?

      • I hope you’re also pursuing the “security cluster” type institutions as well. Since they started burning the trains I have been of the opinion that WC needs its own militia. We can’t rely on Pretoria to do much about this.

        • Dude seriously?

          Pretoria IS burning the trains….. and a lot more besides.
          Why do you think they lack political will against this, or farm murders, or the murder / drug rate in WC, or the sudden huge spike in land settlements in the WC

          Have you not figured it out yet?
          Same playbook used by the them ANC / MKV back in the day…

          THEY WANT IT ALL!!!

  16. Phil, I fully support the realities of why the “Wester Cape” should secede as I have told you during a telephonic discussion about 4 months ago.
    However (as you are aware), I stated that the 10 different “secession-minded bodies” should get together to state what each have achieved so far and thus “consolidate” (meaning to find the agreements and differences between them) and act as one secession body with a set of minimum agreements (e.g. such as the demarcated area involved – which are vastly different between these 10 current bodies), minimal or slow progress will be achieved.
    As you are aware, I even tried to get these 10 bodies together for 2 days to discuss and debate these agreements and differences and only you were willing to take part in such a session, once the other 9 bodies agree to.
    One of those bodies, consisting of a lot of legal experts and residing in George, has mapped out the exact process that has to be followed to obtain secession for the past 6 years plus and thus could be of great assistance to the other 9.
    Another one of these bodies have already established contacts with supporting groups in 6 or 7 big countries (i.e. excluding Russia/Belarus, China and North Korea) that has the ear of their governments and that has indicated that they could and will lobby overseas for the (I think it is 3) countries that must support any secession at the UN for it to become universally accepted. Another plus reason for “getting these 10 bodies together”.
    The only way that secession will become a reality will be to:
    1] Get these 10 bodies to discuss and agree to the minimum criteria for the secession, share the info and contacts that they have built up and form a single temporary secession body; and
    2] Decide on the “secession are” to be the minimum viable that is common ground for all 10 bodies and first focus on achieving that secession prior to expanding – as an analogy, secession will need to be approached as a high jump competition where you start at a lower height an pass that and then go to the next height, etc. The problem is that each of these 10 bodies approach the secession as a long jump competition where you try to jump the furthest from the first jump or a pole vault where you first wait out for a height where you want to start jumping (and it starts raining so hard that you never get a chance to jump at all); and
    3] Choose a representative committee to act temporarily for the process of achieving real secession before having the locals vote for their own legal democratic representatives (without Dominium being involved); and
    4] Achieve the secession with global recognition and get a minimum overall government selected between the various involved regional representatives, etc. and the temporary committee disband.
    All the “stumbling blocks” (which are each one actually an opportunity for the current 10 bodies to discuss and find workable solutions for) should be discussed between these 10 bodies and agreed upon to progress in the process of secession – so much more could be achieved if these 10 bodies came together since some of them have found good workable solutions already but have not shared it amongst the 10 bodies.

    Forget about trying to respond to all the trolls in these previous comments which mostly come from those that live outside the proposed secession area(s) and thus have one of 2 internal agendas, i.e. “It will be detrimental for my own area in the rest of the current socialist RSA” or plain jealousy just because they will not be a recipient of all the benefits that are achievable due to the secession.
    I however feel that in lieu of the historical fact from our forefathers that embarked upon 5 different treks to the north of the RSA, away from the colony (Cape of Good Hope), these 10 different bodies will each try on their own for the next millennium to achieve any secession (which by then might just be for their local street in one or other town).
    As far as the DA goes, I have no more faith in them after John Steenhuizen stated in a podcast between himself and Jerm (Jerm Warfare in 2020, prior to his inauguration), that the DA rather wants to stay as Number 2 in the RSA political arena than be No 1 in a smaller seceded area – this sounds similar to me as what the ANC leadership (rudderless as they have been since inception) stated that for them it is “ANC FIRST then the RSA” – totally the opposite to what Trump stated at the UN which was “USA and its people first, then the UN and its people”. (Guess this is why the Chinese-sponsored Democrats finally steamrolled their pitiful president-elect to become crowned as Trump’s successor – incredible that the choice that Americans had to make was between these 2 options as president for the next 4 years – ROTF-LMAO).
    The DA will therefore not call for a referendum in the proposed secession area in summary (those outside of this proposed secession area are not required to be a part of the referendum since it is all a part of self-determination).
    Alas I have given up hope of any possible secession of some area of the WC in my or my grandchildrens’ lifetimes because even the other current political parties that have stated that they will support secession, I think they will end up with the same statement as the DA if they got voted in to govern the current WC.
    Any chances that the 10 bodies get together as suggested above seems impossible and I think the only valid solitary reason is that each of these 10 bodies wants to be king of their own ivory tower, similar as what happens in the big corporate world.
    ‘Nuff said.

    • This may be so for the top down approach you describe – however, a referendum would be a good place to start.
      Let the people speak for themselves first and then choose their leaders afterwards.

      • James your summation is correct.
        The constitution as well as the UN Article (do not remember the number) states that the “Ruling Party/Government of the specific Area (i.e. the Wester Cape Government, that is the DA) can call for a Referendum of the Inhabitants of the specified area.”
        Step 1 is thus “identify the area and Step 2 is to hold a referendum (of the inhabitants of the area, whether they are trolls or not, but excludes other areas) for segregation of the area, i.e a simple “YES/NO” choice.
        Once this has been held, the DA can discuss and agree with the 10 segregation organisations on all the relevant steps that must be followed (a few of the 10 already knows the exact steps to be followed to not only INFORM the ANC as to what is planned but also get the written agreements/support from some of the major UN Nations.
        However, the DA is not willing to do this for the reasons stated already. The Cape Party is, but has not yet enough supporters currently and the IFF (IVP) states they do but in this case they might also turn out to do an about-turn if they get selected as the ruling party in the Western Cape – who knows?
        The only solution as it stands for secession will be if these 10 organisations band together as 1 (even if just for the initial segregation) and decide to either make use of the Cape Party or create a new political party to get voted into power in the Western Cape or convince the DA to call the referendum.

    • So this is a case of ostrich syndrome. The idea is already decided upon, and the rest of us will not be heard, we will be dismissed as trolls. Or worse, we will be looked down upon as people who are supporting a socialist regime. And yet, you lot deserve to be heard. Sorry, but no. No referendum for you. You cannot defend this idea with reason, and when you hear reason oh no that’s trolling. A special kind of stupid.

      • But Garg, you try your hardest to be a troll, so why be upset when you get called on it? I’ve never seen more disjointed commentary – other than from Donald Trump and was wondering if you are in any way related to the great apricot?

        • Let’s take a step back and consider what rolling is. Trolling means derailing the topic. I have only made comments relating to how retarded the people are who pine for Western Cape independence. What’s more is, unlike those who still have to come up with valid reasons for this idea, I have given reasons from international law why the Western Cape does not meet the requirements for self-determination as defined by the UN. If that is trolling to you, then you know as much about trolling as you know about Donald Trump.

          My ‘trolling’ questions stand: Identify the culture of the people of the Western Cape that is not shared by the rest of the country. As I mentioned when ‘trolling’, Zululand meets the criteria for self-determination, should they want it. The Western Cape does not. I am more than willing to change my mind if someone can answer my questions. I will still oppose Western Cape secession, but at least I would be able to say that those following this idea at last gave it some thought.

      • Garg it is good that you voice your opinions/concerns/questions, it will prepare the 1 unified organisation to address all of them, however until you have relocated into the specific area demarcated for segregation, you have no say in it or even voting rights once a referendum is called.
        I have learnt decades ago that once a “problem” to an idea/action has been identified, it stays a “problem” until you take the “opportunity” to find one or better still multiple possible “solutions” and discard the unworkable “options” and “solve the problem” for the solution. That exactly is why Elon Musk is so successful financially-spoken and now the richest person in the world on paper due to all the so-called “insolvable problems” that various other corporations worldwide has struggled with for centuries. He believes that failing to succeed with the first effort/solution, is not failure itself, you have to learn from it and improve on it to be successful in the end – exactly what he and his various teams achieves.

        • Exactly, which is item number 2 that I mentioned there. And the issues that I raised are the mind-numbingly obvious ones. Patrick did a far better job at explaining why it’s not economically viable. It’s more complicated than ‘look at the x% or so we contribute to GDP – we are a net contributor!’ Also look at what the Western Cape gains from the rest of the country, and yes the Western Cape gains plenty. UCT gets government funding, to name but one.

          And as mentioned, when is the last time we had a referendum? I do not think it’s going to happen.

  17. Thank you Mr Craig for your incredible work on this project. The more we push for this the more pressure there will be to take back as much power to the WCape as possible. There is one strategic avenue that I think could be explored, although it might sound counter-intuitive. What about campaigning for the inclusion of Lesotho (as a start and then possibly Eswatini and Botswana etc) into South Africa? Lesotho is already de-facto part of SA and is a country in name only. I am sure most BaSotho would favour unification with SA. By including Lesotho, there will have to be a shake-up in the constitutional arrangement and could lead to a more federal style of government. This could lead to a greater autonomy for the provinces, and a step towards our WCape independence.

    • Unlike the Western Cape, Eswatini and Lesotho both have a unique, identifiable culture of its own, along with clear geographical boundaries. Also, the Southern African Development Community intervention in Lesotho circa 1998 suggests that perhaps they may not be so keen on the idea. Also, what’s the point in uniting all these alraedy independent states? Surely, if independence is your thing, you should grant it to them too?


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